The Non-Bitcoin Maximalist Episode with Daniel Jones & Joshua Davis- DYOR 012

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DYOR 012 Show Notes

Intro:  You’re listening to the DYOR Podcast where your host Tom Buonincontri helps simplify blockchain and cryptocurrency for investors and crypto enthusiasts. If you’re looking to learn about blockchain, Bitcoin, and cryptocurrency, without all the hype, you’re in the right place. All opinions expressed by Tom or his guests on this podcast are their own and do not reflect the opinions of any organization they are associated with. This podcast is for informational purposes only and is not investments, legal or tax advice. Remember to always do your own research. Now here’s your host, Tom Buonincontri.

Tom:  Alright guys, welcome back to another episode of the DYOR podcast. I’m your host Tom Buonincontri and today we have a DYOR first I am joined by two guests, Joshua Davis and Daniel Jones. How’s it going guys?

Joshua: Good. How are you doing? I’m doing great, Joshua. Thanks for taking time to come on. Of course.

Tom: Daniel, how are you doing today? I’m doing wonderful.

Tom: Awesome man. I appreciate you taking the time to come on. So I think the best way to start off is if you guys could just give the audience a little bit as far as you know, your background and how you got into the space. So I don’t know, Daniel, if you want to kick things off. Sure.

Daniel: I’m an early miner, but in bold with a big point in for too long, I say that people often laugh at me, but over 10 years now I write software. I help educate people on what a crypto currency actually is, not the hype. I explained to people all the fundamentals work and I teach developers on how to integrate and utilize the software for their applications.

Tom: Very cool. Is your background with computer science and you know, developing before you just,

Daniel: Well, so I was already a software engineer and then I also developed some, I exchanged over four axes that we’re dealing with BI. That was why I was absent from the Bitcoin world for a few years. So yeah.

Tom: Very cool. Joshua, how about yourself?

Joshua: So I was a early adopter of Bitcoin and a late adopter of social media, which caused quite a disconnect in how, what my perception of what the community was like.

Tom: I mean, listen, you made the right call by logging, getting into, you know, Bitcoin and everything earlier before social media. But I’m sure it was a little bit of a shock when you jumped into crypto Twitter or as we’ll refer to it in this episode. Cringe Twitter.

Joshua: Absolutely. It was a huge culture shock.

Tom: So how was it that you first heard about it and you know, kind of went down the rabbit hole?

Joshua: I first heard about it from my best friend actually. He got me into it and it seems like an interesting transfer of value and that’s kind of how I saw it, a transfer of value and I thought it was pretty neat.

Tom: What about yourself, Daniel? What was your first interaction and you know, how did you find out if fall down that rabbit hole?

Daniel: I was running a tour bridge and I was on a operator’s chat and a guy was using my bridge and a relay and he, I’ve been using it for some time and they told me, you wanted to give me a coin and so I’m not giving you mad or I cause behind in router, you know what I’m saying? Like you don’t do that. And uh, he was like, no, you downloaded this wallet that knew this stuff. So long time ago he sent me a coin and then later on I read the white paper and just started putting machines to mining it after I read it. Understood it. And from there, what I saw was the power of permissionalist network with the Trestles consensus that, you know, two people could interact with each other and send, you know, some store of value of some sort. In the early days there was no value. So for us it was just sending data.

Tom: And what’s the timeframe on this?

Daniel: This is around 2010. 2011.

Tom: Okay. So even earlier, so you’re a true O G in the space?

Daniel: I’ve been around longer than most. Uh, I, I don’t like to talk about certain specific things because of identifiable doc school information that could compromise security.

Tom: No, that makes perfect sense. So I’m curious to get both of your perspectives on this since you guys were very early adopters earlier than most people, especially within the past two, three years that you know, you have all these dancers coming out and trying to be crypto experts in everything from the very beginning of your first interaction with pickling and everything. How have you seen the market growing and change over the past few years?

Joshua: So it’s just gotten so heavily commercialized and it’s funny how the different camps throw around that, Oh well this coin is supported by this person. That coin is supported by this person. All the coins are supported by different companies, corporations at this point and none are exempt from it. And it seems like there’s much more of a perspective on number go up and how many feet can we get in the door versus network effect and what it can do for people.

Tom: So Daniel, before you jump in, Joshua, I just want to dive a little bit deeper into that. So when you said that there’s like particular coins that are being backed by companies, can you kind of just explain that a little bit more? Obviously we have like XRP and that’s kind of highly correlated with the ripple company itself. You know, everyone has their own opinions on that and that’s very controversial coin. But is that something what you were referring to?

Joshua: I’m referring to coins like that. Daniel and I were actually just talking about this the other day. There’s also dash I would consider a occur corporate coin and there’s others. Z cash is a corporate coin. These things are investor back from the beginning. There’s no, there’s no community except for the community they build out of their company’s marketing. But I’m saying that that at this point, uh, more broadly applies even to the coins that aren’t considered corporate coins.

Tom: So from like a Bitcoin perspective, right?

Joshua: Yeah. From a Bitcoin perspective, it would seem block stream, enlightening labs push a lot of narrative. I don’t want, and I don’t want this all episode to be about them, but no doubt lightning’s an important thing to note that a lot of Bitcoiners are putting their faith in something that is VC backed by Silicon Valley billionaires and they think that lightning labs doesn’t have a responsibility to

Daniel:
their investors to return money for their equity. They absolutely do. And I think it’s a dangerous position. You also have to look at the consideration of what lightening is. So just because something uses Bitcoin doesn’t make it Bitcoin and there is a huge amount of confusion around that. Right. And because of that, just misleading and misinformation in regards to that. Well, I think

is a company, they have a responsibility to tell their investors but also is important. Remember what once you get out of layer one Bitcoin itself, you’re no longer in Bitcoin is network. So the values and the propositions, the principles that it has are at jeopardy because you’re no longer participating in its network. You’re now agnostic. And that can be very dangerous because sulfur can be custom written change and modify accordingly to introduce a service. To an end user tailored to a business. And that’s where like some of the people were being anger, angry with some of the stuff that I’ve said in regards to like the future of the KYC attacks and stuff like that. People don’t really understand that because most people don’t understand that Bitcoin to sulfur and they also don’t understand how sulfur works, but instead they’ll virtue signal and continue to speak. Like there are some authoritative figure on the matter.

Tom: So can you go a little bit deeper into that? I think it was very important for a lot of investors and just people getting interested into the space to realize, right. Then you have Bitcoin, which is the layer one, and then you have lightning, which is the solution layer too. That’s being built on top of that. And can you kind of just like go into a little bit deeper why once you start moving to those layer two solutions, it’s not necessarily Bitcoin.

Daniel: Yeah, sure. So Bitcoin by itself is a software as that were, is built upon a chain economics model for sustainability as generation of the byproduct of Bitcoin for a block reward and transaction fees for the users of that network. Miners are received reward nodes are not incentivized at this time, but they can be depending on what you’re trying to implement. However, not network and chain economics system as what all the other gambling speculatory price gouging, all that kind of stuff are generated from the chain economics. So lightning doesn’t participate into that until a channel is closed, right? So what’s important to remember is that lightning is a secondary network, so it is not on the main chain until it closes the channel. And then post the actual transactions was also important to remember is that because it is not the main chain, if someone manipulates or changes to software, for example, releases a product that says, I’m not gonna say the big standard.

Daniel: I can tell you right now, you’ll see it before the end of the year, but orange going button on a banking app may tell you that you can use lightning. And what happens is people fill the understand this small businesses or are reliant on merchant services and those merchant services are created by basin institutions, right? And so they can force a merchant up to KYC on both sides, but also force you to use their specific channels provided to the merchant services to the vendor. And that’s where people misunderstand things because people were like, Oh, run your own pure run this. That’s great. But the reality is, is not anybody’s really spending enough. Have you seen the latest shirts like four or $5 million worth of Bitcoin staked and only like $50 a day worth of transactions on lightning or something like that. And that should tell you a lot because if you’re a merchant, are you going to list or your financials of your business on the idea of this revolution or are you going to fall and use what they give you in the specific set that they have?

Daniel: And the reason that’s dangerous because again, it’s software that’s not Bitcoin. So because it’s not Bitcoin, it doesn’t have to follow the same characteristics as Bitcoin. And there’s the dangerous that like say for example company a or dang, Hey this ice introduced this channel. Now all of a sudden their channel, because it’s open source code, they can literally modify it and redistribute it, but they can force the merchant staff to use that and solution versus any other solution. And the dangerous part is, is that when we start talking about peer-to-peer, now all of a sudden we’re talking about peer to peer with a trusted third party. And so when you’re talking about Bitcoin itself, confirmations and things got over the actual transactions on the main chain, taking long time lightning helps to expedite this process and make it semi instant. But the dangerous part again is that there is a trade off.

Daniel: There’s a compromise. At no point can you say that, you know, lightning is just as powerful as Bitcoin because it really isn’t because it requires Bitcoin, but Bitcoin doesn’t require light. And that’s a misconception that’s being counted right now by the max voice and the use of liquid and all these other things. The reality is is once you start taking away from Bitcoin core networking, you start using things. They’re no longer Bitcoin but some other software you’re having to deal with a software issue. Just like law I posted the other day, you know lightning C has vulnerabilities and things like that. It’s still in its infancy and so people are trying to champion that rounded it. But the reality is is that at what point do we realized, yes, that’s great, we’ll get better adoption, we’ll get better use cases and more people using it, but at what cost? The entire principle reason that Bitcoin exists, which is the permission was network with trustless consensus. I mean at a point and it will no longer be that and it’ll be the orange point buttoning and now

Tom: If any of the listeners didn’t understand that or I would highly suggest that you rewind and re listen to that entire thing because that is a very important piece to note. When we were talking about the lightening network itself, Joshua, what do you think of all that?

Joshua: Daniel and I have discussed this previously, pretty much in consensus on it. If you’re putting your eggs in the lightning basket, you’re heading towards a system where you’re going to have a trusted third party, maybe more than one in between your Bitcoin quote unquote transaction.

Tom: So can you explain that a little bit more? So when I open a lightening channel, right, that’s basically a state channel where it’s a giant IOU, right? So we can make these your transactions back and forth to one another and none of them are being posted onto the chain until it will be actually closed that out. And then we decided to settle and then whatever, you know the ledger says at that point, who owes who, what? The Bitcoin gets transferred to that second posted on the chain itself. So how has there these third parties, if there might be multiple trusted like third that are helping with this, can you explain that a little more?

Joshua: Sure. To Daniel’s point, it’s about how they go for lightning adoption. And if they do it through merchants and banks, then you have the ability to pay with lightning, but we don’t know what the permissions are. We don’t know if it’s KYC on both sides and you are relying on a third party and who’s channel are you using? Are you using the banks lightning network channel or are you seeing the merchants? Lightning network channel

Daniel: is also a bit ridiculous that people think that merchants are going to run their own infrastructure for this stuff. I want to point this out. First of all, in the early days we used to think it was like, you know everybody’s going to run their own pier. That’s not feasible. I mean let’s get real. Okay, so like if a merchant is running its own channel and it’s bank which provides financial services for them to be able to operate and function as a business, as use our channel, use this implementation and this is the black list of addresses. That’s it. That’s all they have to do and the software can control that both on the app side and with the merchant services are doing what it is. Is pupil often times, don’t look at it that way, but let me explain you a bank literally can blacklist a an account today?

Daniel: Well, guess what? Whenever you can start registering and looking at who’s sending one and checking the lighting that we’re, you can also blacklist of dresses and because of this there’s often this misunderstanding that, Oh well they can’t do that. Yes, they can. The application that the user is going to pay for, it’s controlled by the bank so therefore they can control the routing. It’s going what services? Choosing payment gateway channel and the merchant has no choice to think that most merchants are going to run a BTC based server like no offense and I like BTC server, but the costs, time, effort, all of that doesn’t add up. Whenever you’re talking about maybe getting two transactions a year, I’m sorry, but it really, most people aren’t using lightning for an everyday page or a Bitcoin for any type of payments. Most of the chain transactions we’ve seen today, barring some joke or some silly game or some smaller exchange or someone moving big amounts.

Daniel: I mean like literally nobody’s paying for goods and services. Most of the traffic you see today and the men pool is people moving in and out of an exchange like seriously. Well, you can go take a look at it. Most of them are exchange wallets and like because of that, people have to understand that as a business, why am I going to sacrifice a tax liability and a huge cost of fraud? Not to mention a learning curve whenever I could just use my bank’s implementation and still keep my financial services. I mean you have to really ask yourself that question is say $80 worth of Bitcoin a year that you’re going to get at most because most people aren’t spending it on stuff. Is that enough to justify losing your financial services that you use for your business? That’s a real question.

Tom: Well, it’s completely worth it because hyper Bitcoin is nation is inevitable. So essentially what you’re saying is that the merchant is not going to go through that entire process because it’s going to take them a lot of time and effort, just learning and getting the fuel for all of this stuff. And there’s not a whole lot of transactions going on through it right now. But if a bank that this merchant works with, they have their own lightening channel, they could just use that like the general, but what you saying is that that bank has the ability to blacklist any address that they want and restrict funds being paid through that because it’s their software that they code and they’re in charge of it, right?

Daniel: Correct. That’s the way it works. Now, I mean, same thing with PayPal accounts and other people are sending [inaudible] out through other services and money under your license services. It’s the same principles.

Tom: So I think it’s really interesting because you guys are both like early adopters and you’ve been in this way longer than I have and longer than the vast majority of people into this space right now. So you’ve seen a lot happen over the past few years. And you, you have a very deep understanding of it. So it’s interesting to hear you both, you know, kind of call out all these maximalists and say Hey this is all great and everything, but there’s a lot of downside to it and this is in just inevitable as everyone keeps pumping it to be on CT. So in your opinions, what do you think is next for Bitcoin and how are we going to actually see adoption of this thing?

Joshua: It depends on what you want to call it. Adoption. I mean seriously. I mean adoption is quickly becoming just investment. If that’s what it’s going to be, then fine. How quickly do we see more people investing? I don’t know. I don’t have a crystal ball.

Daniel: Yeah, I mean like the biggest problem is right now everything you see is like buy Bitcoin rightly. I remember when it was buying Bitcoin actually participate in the self sovereignty of pseudo anonymity and protecting oneself and like that was the thing that kept me interested and attracted to being involved with it was the fact that like, you know, one CPU, one boat, everybody got this opportunity to participate in this network to do some amazing stuff that nobody could stop and now it’s evolved into by Bitcoin. Stout says, Oh yeah, huddle huddle, which isn’t even a use case because it doesn’t support the network by the way, at all about the Austrian economics side of it. It doesn’t at all.

Joshua: I completely agree with Daniel and I think that, you know, adoption is at this point a misnomer. It’s like adoption is what, how many people you can convince the huddle that’s not adoption uses. Distributing the coins or using the network, sending it to your friends, using it to pay for things. That’s adoption and it seems like the mentality of the community is to go in the opposite direction. Ooh, how many little stats can I stack? It’s like what? You guys are like scared to send some Bitcoin? I’ll send some Bitcoin right now and I don’t care what happened to spend in replace distribution doesn’t happen. And without distribution, adoption doesn’t happen. So I think we’re heading very far away from adoption as it’s known.

Tom: So how do we counteract that and how do we get more usage and how do we get people more comfortable with actually spending their Bitcoin?

Daniel: I mean seamlessly scale the main chain because right now we use these tertiary systems and stuff like that. That’s to put on chain transactions much later. But scaling Bitcoin would allow for best throughput, we can implement a

page and on the main chain, which would for bed, the bank attack vector by the way, but banks are longing Bitcoin. So like understanding that almost all OnRamps during home and KYC and everything like that. Right? Like the banks are just watching this little experiment because what’s going to happen is as you know, transaction fees onto the blog, right? And these help compensate the miners for their ROI. And then a point in which you’re not generating a blocker wards, your fees have to compensate for the lack there of, of the block reward. This is commonly referred to as a nail point. And the reason why is because at that point, depending on prize, if there’s a bear market, Bitcoin could go down very fast because most people will pull their miners out and everyone says, book my store, and I’m going to tell you right now, if you’re running a large gold mining operation at a hundred thousand $200,000 a year loss, you’re not gonna run that mining operation for very well.

Daniel: I’m sorry. Most people aren’t committed enough to the revolution, quote unquote, to stay there. And people have to really realize that and they’re like, yes, it’s great. You want to build this auction economics built in, derives from what’s happening on the chain economics and you want to try to push that narrative. The narrative is that Bitcoin is a peer to peer, like try and payment system is supposed to replace or be a digital cash. Now, that doesn’t mean that anyone’s right or wrong as far as that goes. And what people need to understand is that sure it is software, which is another thing to goes sooner religion around it. The main problem is, is that people don’t really understand what the coin represents and instead they see huddle because that’s a drunk mean by the way. I don’t, I don’t care what anyone says that that is a mean like literally a drunk guy posted that. So, and I apologize for being drunk in the spelling hold all of this just kind of silly because huddling doesn’t support the network and it doesn’t support the ever branching of, doesn’t put transactions on chain cause it implies you’re not using it because you’re huddling holdings.

Joshua: So with that being said, what do you think is the next steps to, you know, actually scaling the main chain itself? Cause, obviously there’s been a lot of discussion and we had you know, a lot of these forks with the Bitcoin cash and a few years ago and you know that kind of divided the community a little bit and you know that now all these Bitcoin maximalists are you saying lightning is going to be the savior for everything, but in your opinion, how do we scale that?

Daniel: Can I throw a job real quick? All the [inaudible] virtue signals against UAS up for BCH now run side channels or businesses associated with side channels. So go figure. So scaling the main chain, make money, look at it. Every one of them, all the big players who virtue signal, all of them run a payment gateway service or some type of secondary layer. Now for Bitcoin. So scaling the main chain. Joshua, what do you think? I agree with Daniel. I think you know, they could have easily scaled the network by making the blocks bigger. It’s like, Oh everyone has to run a note. Well there’s also more of law and people are going to be able to store more data going forward. It’s like to pretend like you have to run a data center to have two or four megabyte blocks is ridiculous. Yeah. Literally when you download it or where you watch a video on YouTube, you store more in your cache on your browser than what for Megan, my blogs, I would do her two megabyte blocks.

Daniel: That always seems to be their argument is like, Oh well then people aren’t going to be able to run nodes change 246 gigs for 244.7 something like that. I forgot the exact, it’s in between two 43 and two 45 right now. Gigabytes by the way, not megabytes. So we’re talking about gigs. So it will point most laptops, you figure on the low end model ship with what 256 gig SSD is already built into them. Most drives for most people is a, you know, going to be 256 gigs. So already for someone who run a pure, just spend some money anyway and it’d be naive to think that they’re not going to the one network. Yeah. And you can buy one, a one two terabyte hard drive, super cheap now. 30 bucks, 25 in some places the hell or you can get one for $10 it’d be looking on eBay and stuff.

Daniel: Every brand. I think I missed it a little bit there. Can you guys kind of just, you know, rehash out what it is with the actual scaling itself? Is it just using it and just making people get comfortable with the idea of actually spending their Bitcoin and you know, transacting with it itself for scaling or, well, so when these happen is two things. One, they need to tear down representation and actual transactions that they can do. Chalet for example, you can use pointers and stuff instead of having a constantly referencing the hash values that would cut down on some space, but also instead of just expanding double lock size in order to try and cram more transactions in, someone should actually spend some time, Hey, I got, by the way, this is going to be engineering work you’re not going to get paid for. And that’s part of the problem.

Daniel: By the way, I like Satoshi. Most people, unless the company is paying them, they’re not developing a whole lot of software for free these days. I believe in Bitcoin wine because it’s money. And so when you started looking at certain aspects of things, right? Yeah, keep in mind that a blog site is just going from one to two megabytes. Sure you can get a duct tape solution and it’s the easiest because you don’t have to do a lot of engineering work, but someone needs to review how transactions are applied to your blog and from their optimization can be done. I mean, let’s be honest, if you want to take a look at some of these POS coins by POS and improved the state, they actually have a smart idea about transactions are done. So in some cases, you know they can fit 80 to a hundred TPS with a 177 kilobyte by block or as big point is megabytes because the size of the transaction has the data.

Daniel: Now does that mean that the POS coins are right or they’re coins wrong? No, but that means that we can learn. Remember software, the software or hitting balls, you have to constantly keep up with that, and if you’re not keeping up with that, I’m going to bring up Apache because that’s exactly what happened to the Apache web server, right? It Linder got sunsetted by end genetics because it just kept adding tertiary and secondary pieces, but it wasn’t fixing the main problem, which was the performance throughput and genetics did that. Now, Bitcoin itself has to go through an iterative change and most people don’t want to start looking at Bitcoin or software because, Oh well it’s this fine oil German machine. No, it’s not. It has bugs as vulnerabilities. It’s not perfect and it’s software and people need to understand that we have to improve software. You can say whenever you want to Obama’s or value, whatever, who cares? The fact is that we don’t start treating Bitcoin software. The coin itself will die because software has to be maintained. It’s all for it has to be improved. Software has to be improved to be competitive, or someone else will get faded like, like literally, and this happens every day, every other branch of software. Right now, Bitcoin is the only reason it’s not doing so.

Tom: How do you see it evolving, you know, in your eyes, how would you want to evolve the software itself? Just looking at the transactions, interests, you know, trying to figure out a way to in the fit more than per block.

Daniel: Well, that’s one method. The other method is is figuring out how to incentivize nodes by incentivizing the node operators. It’s problem with the space that they’re utilizing and things like that. Then you won’t have that issue because peers are the ones that keep a copy of the blockchain. Remember not the miners and so because the peers are the ones that are doing it, we can say, you know, why didn’t you guys doing an appliance to the main chain without meeting Oh, someone else’s software and use the pier itself? You actually effectively eliminate the problem of having a peer’s wanting to still be there, getting incentivized and see you have instant payment channels and then you’ve got slow payment channels that exist on the network depending on what the user needs. Thus creating an interesting paradigm of Bitcoin for people that can actually work as Bitcoin from Bitcoin core instead of, you know, 17 different pieces of software to be able to send a transaction. Have you tried to use some of the current maximum lowness ways? It’s kind of ridiculous by the way. There’s some very, very terrible user experience stuff that’s going on there. And then also I want to point out the lightning as SSL only. So like there’s also a problem there that you have. So keep in mind that like if you want to do something over ham radio or analog as radio, you run into some legality issues because of forward facing secrecy, which is encryption.

Daniel: So like there’s a paradigm of things that could go wrong there. But if you were to take the same philosophy and apply it to the main chain and a variety of ways, including fixing transactions, references, optimizing how the blocks are being done, optimize our transactions are being put into the blog, allow for the news to be incentivized and then using a payment channel there can be incentivize incentivizing the no’s by offering the instant pay. All on the main chain. What you do is you effectively eliminate a lot of the attack vectors player two as well as you provide a better service for anyone that wants to actually be a part of the Bitcoin network.

Tom: It’s interesting. I think the issue is that since we had that ICO craze of 2017 the vast majority of people that enter the market at that point in time were not computer savvy. Definitely not engineers or computer science or anything like that. So to them they don’t really see it as software and they just see it as money, which is the problem that you were just stating before. So how do we kind of transition that paradigm, I guess, and how they’re viewing it because they’re kind of just going by everything they see on Twitter and stuff like that where they have all these influential people just saying whole huddle by more stacks, stats, you know, money that we’re gonna see a huge increase in price over the next year because of the having event. How do we kind of change that narrative to, Hey, this is software and it should be treated as such.

Daniel: I’ve been trying to receive some death threats literally this week. I done threat. One of the things I want to point out, but brought those two things. A lot of people who are quote unquote major influencers in the Bitcoin maximalist community have been a part of several shows. Like it’s interesting that they kind of turn a blind eye to that even though they’re literally, we’re preaching about how you should buy their token and now they’re seeing this champions of this environment. And going back to what you said, the lot of these people are not computer scientists and they’re not anything related to the field. And even if they are, most of them aren’t working or attempting to work on Bitcoin because they would rather make money doing alternative, you know, doing their own channels. So to go forward, if we’re gonna fix that, right. Basically I literally called out maximalist and said, Hey, this is wrong and misinforming and they’re just like, this is our propaganda. This is what we’re doing. Get over.

Tom: They’ve literally said like, this is our propaganda to you?

Daniel: I can send you the tweets wash. well, carbon man hasn’t.

Joshua: They do think that way. To answer your question of how to kind of change this perception from huddle to use and from this is God’s money to software. I tried to do through humor and I think that ultimately the way that it changes is one of two ways. Either this thing crashes and a bunch of people’s dreams or dash or, and I would prefer this, these maximalist propaganda. Talking points go so far that they lose more and more people and I think that’s kind of partially what we’re seeing. I know a lot of people who aren’t on board with all this stuff aren’t on board with the lifestyle diet of being a carnivore and hating anyone who uses any other chain. It’s like you don’t see this in, even if it is just an investment for you. You don’t see this in any other investment communities where it’s like, Oh, you bought different stocks than me. You’re a piece of shit. You’re a scammer. Like

Daniel: what road are you running for web server than me? You, you need to be burned at the state. Yeah. Like seriously, who does that? Nobody.

Tom: So I think that the more extremist they make themselves, the more they isolate themselves from reasonable people. Are we going to see that? Wow, they’re really being extremist about this. It’s like let people use what they want. Let them around with it.

Joshua: Yeah. I think the issue is, like I said before, a lot of these people getting into this space aren’t computer scientists and you know, they don’t really have a technology background on it. So they’re kind of relying on these maximalists who have been in this space for a while and you know, kind of do something related with the tech work and they think that they know what they’re talking about and like their word is the end all be all of things. And my issue is that there’s so much information coming out about, you know, just blockchains, Bitcoin and everything right now that it’s very intimidating for someone who doesn’t have that background. They’re kind of just jump in and start learning about it. And they don’t really know what’s accurate and what’s not. Besides spending a lot of time to dig through all of that stuff and come to the conclusion of what’s legitimate or not. So how do we kind of fight that a little bit more? Is it just let them maximalists you know, run their course and eventually they’ll just be seen crazy by everyone.

Daniel: Well I can, people don’t rope, they’ll hang themselves, right? Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I mean that doesn’t go away, but they will hang themselves. You don’t have to understand, just like me and Josh, we’ve talked a lot about this, right? Where we’ve gone over like the behavioralism and you watch this stuff and they’re literally acting as if there’s some kind of religious belief. I kid you not. If you removed Bitcoin from what they’re saying and insert some deity, you would’ve thought they were fucking extremist. And I’m not kidding. Like that kind of behavior wouldn’t be tolerated. Like seriously. The other day we got into this a text editors, right? So the last time in my remembrance of anyone where I’ve seen death threats over the internet, over software was BI versus Emacs. Okay. And like literally outside of that, and you don’t see people really being this way, but like with this movement man, it literally becomes this issue where people want to misinformed, misguided, mislead.

Daniel: Because for them it’s easier to virtue signal and give their opinion versus back checking. I mean again, going back to the propaganda machine, right? And I have the tweets, I’ll send them over to you today when we get done with this, where they’re literally like, you don’t need to be factual to, to be providing information to people. And that’s part of them problem is the fact that they go to these conferences or as they call them, sometimes we’re Bibles as it was from first to last. So again, it’s okay to not be 100% and that’s dangerous because I’ll tell you right now, I work in software that has nothing to do with blockchain line and my day job. And literally none of that would be acceptable. Like if you went around misleading people about what a piece of software did you, you may get sued because they’re going to buy into yourself are and all of a sudden they’re going to realize nothing. What you said it was a matter of fact, it’s not a hundred percent accurate when you told them just like Bitcoin’s never been hacked, that work’s never been down. Those kind of things, those are important for people to understand that that’s some has happened and will happen again.

Joshua: Do you think we’ll see and they can in a few years a slew of lawsuits coming out from that itself?

Daniel: I don’t think so because it’s hard to assume an individual based how because it’s company ran a piece of software. I do think where you’re going to start seeing those people taking away from the maximum will get them very angry and I honestly welcome it because it’s not going to have a problem with them being believers in Bitcoin because trust me, I build this thing for too long. I’m a believer. Yes, but the fundamentals have changed. Whereas when we were doing, when I was doing it in the early days and nothing to do with price and losing money, it was about, you know, being able to do something that the government or the actual reason to use it was it a very power and gave you shouldn’t do something that nobody just stopped paying. In today’s world, they don’t care. I mean, why don’t people can blacklist addresses now some exchanges are already starting to do that report.

Daniel: Usually the authorities, if you move coins there, that kind of stuff. It’s becoming the exact opposite of what it was intended to be. At what point in time did you kind of see that shift in the narrative itself? Was it in 2017 when the price kind of jumped up for like 600 close 2013 once Ross Albright was arrested, Bitcoin started to tumble 2014 when the price was around in about five bucks a, the coin was going to die, but it didn’t. It just in the 80s for a while and kind of worked its way up before. What we’ve begun the bear market of 2017 into 2016 2017 as we start seeing the price go up a little bit, that time was very dangerous because a lot of people had been there awhile and got scared, left a lot of people abandoned. Just didn’t wanna be a part of it anymore because people had the wrong perception of Bitcoin that was only used for drugs and human trafficking and stuff.

Daniel: And that tarnished it. But later these people were trying to come in and champion and there’s some kind of pseudo religion going to save the world kind of thing. But there are people that we’ve mentioned about today who, who literally, and today’s science will tell you that Bitcoin will cure cancer, your homelessness. Sure. Every financial issue when in reality it won’t. But prior to 2013 it was just seen as, as libertarianism. Great. Let’s see. Have, you know, soul sovereignty permissionalist trustless consensus. And it was powerful because that’s what it was. And if you look at that today, that narrative has definitely shifted in that started in late 2013 probably right after the Ross Albright arrest. Like seriously sober and everything changed then and the perception of Bitcoin and what people thought of it. That gives the power. I started dumping really fast and cops were looking for all these people and stuff.

Daniel: Yeah, the perception changed because people thought that corner was done. So a lot of these old timers, including myself and others, well I’ve been working on financial software. We had to step away because we weren’t doing anything wrong or illegal. It shows, you know, the perception had changed and when I happened some of us were under NDA that we could work on certain financial software or talk about it. You get a chance to come back, it’s gone to shit. Do you think there’s any way for us to actually revive that narrative and that sense of almost like a revolution, you know, it’s peer to peer. It’s decentralized. We were in charge of our private keys. We own our money in our banks and stuff like that. Or are we kind of too far gone at this point? The only way we’re going to see those if we start getting away from relying on third parties or get away from this motion that we need to do to be creating secondary channels in a study, use primary and enforce people to understand the fundamental and the core network is the most important piece because we’ll now that none of the other things will exist.

Daniel: That means like, you know, you’re not have minors, you don’t have peers, you don’t have anyone being able to process and validate transactions. Nothing matters. Even the secondary network wall.

Tom: Joshua, why was it that you, you didn’t leave the market once, like, you know, there’s 2013 things started shifting a little bit. Why, why did you decide to stick around and you’re still in it today? Uh, I stuck around essentially until, as far as being in the market and actively using it until 2017 and I became a lot more skeptical there with the, how things changed. And the reason I’m still in it and I still, I still have that coin. The reason I’m still in it is because it interests me and I answered the question you just asked Daniel too. With the current narrative and the way things are heading. I don’t see it changing back to being about peer-to-peer, about being a decentralized, but I do see people still actively doing really interesting things in the space and trying to build noncustodial solutions and trying to figure out ways for chance to interact with smart contracts and doing all sorts of things that I think still have a lot of value and are very interesting in the way that they work.

Daniel: Yeah, I was doing mostly focused on a Bitcoin coin inside of my answer. I agree with Josh. There’s a lot of interesting technology that’s being made related to new contracts and integrations and what conch rights can represent, but I also don’t like that name smart contract because our contracts are actually supposed to be pretty stupid. Silly can say processing time on the block at that point you might as well just that music API and say the hell we’re writing the contract though. You don’t have to worry about. I mean that’s also part of the problem because the contracts cemented in the block. It doesn’t go away and that’s something that people also don’t understand is that yeah, you’re right about a contract and it’s always there.

Tom: Yeah. I think that’s why we haven’t seen the adoption yet. Right. We don’t know what happens if there’s some type of bug in the smart contract that point in time. No, I mean that’s the perfect example, right? I mean that’s literally what happened. You know? They just found a vulnerability in it. They exploited it and then we had the accretion of Ethiopia. It’s your cash because of the divide of the community, whether it actually executed or not and how they do respond to it.

Daniel: governance funnel like that is dangerous because I’ll be blunt with you, one of the problems that I work outside project as well, that’s not an ICO or anything, but you know, it literally uses a trustless consensus that when the permission was not working, it support smart contracts. You know that that’s a very limited because one of the problems that you have, because as you add complexity, any system, you’re literally opening yourself up to being, you know, destroyed by having simple border abilities and then you’d have to get a consensus of governance agreements. Right. And like something like that will never happen [inaudible] networks because people were refused to allow someone to save their friends.

Tom: Yeah, I mean that’s completely right. So I mean we’ll, we’ll see how this things shaped up over the next couple of years. Are there any other pieces of the technology that’s being built there, excites you right now?

Daniel: I mean there’s some consensus of what’s being done, but for the most part, a lot of the technology shows people trying to bastardize something that already exists in FinTech and put it toward Bitcoin or cryptocurrency as a whole one with you on that. If you take a look today, most through we’re trying to add in [inaudible] this is same kind of stuff we see in the FIAR world. So like it’s great that we started to see these parallels. Problem is that a lot of us, not very exciting because a lot of it takes away from the core fundamentals of what the client represents. And because of that, as we grow and expand and we started to see the changing of what’s happening in the technical environment, then literally we’ve just started the CVS seeing problems creep back up. It’s really sad for somebody like me because again, like I got into this shift for the anti-government anti-D bang shit I didn’t, but I didn’t care about money cause when I got them all there was no money and we just did it because it was cool. It was exciting. It was interesting to be a part of something that nobody could stop and as long as you kept that idealism and you know, we were sending stuff from a ham radio, we were doing some through various other satellite channels and stuff like that prior to anyone doing it and it was just exciting. It was fun.

Joshua: I’m with, I’m with Daniel on this. Price appreciation should be the most boring aspect, not the, not the most exciting. And it seems to be that’s the way most people, yeah, for sure. Right. I mean, like we said before, a lot of these people, they’re not computer scientists and stuff like that. They’re just trying to make a quick buck off this. So they’re just really focusing on this on a quote unquote investment and trying to get five, 10 X wind limbo when moon. So they’re, they’re not really in it for the tech, unfortunately. So I’m really interested to see how people start going on the future with it. Especially with the younger generation, right? A lot of these kids in high school and middle school and stuff like that right now, they’re not going to live in a world where they don’t know what a crypto currency was or what a Bitcoin was because it’s going to be around most of their lives and they really have an opportunity to apply themselves and take this thing in a whole other direction and build out different use cases for it. So I’m kind of trying to push that a little bit more.

Daniel: I want to tell him man about that. I’m glad you said something about the younger generation. I’ll tell you right now that’s, that’s not accurate in some cases, even in the screening United States, and I enjoy it right now, there’s a large and vast piece in this country where people don’t even know what Bitcoin is. They’ve heard of it only because of the news cast in 2013 that was people saying you can buy drugs on the internet with it on the soak room with Bitcoin. Outside of that, these people, there were, a lot of people have no what it is. They just know that you know. Then there was a 2017 thing. That’s all they know and then it deflated. They have no idea about the correspondence of technology lately. You know, any correspondence problem, understanding technology, understanding any of that. And the reason why it is because for a lot of people, they look at it as a scary speculatory risky investment and so like it’s hard for the schools to do.

Daniel: I mean it’s hard for school to say, Hey, let’s use this technology. Basically that’s just being used for gambling on secondly. Okay, what do you mean as being used for gambling? Okay, well can’t I buy stuff with it? Will you? Theoretically you shouldn’t because you should huddle and gamble on it. And that’s, that’s the narrative we’re seeing. So like it’s hard for certain areas of this country in the world to, to get behind that. Yeah, sure there’s money there. But outside of that, if you’re teaching these kids, I’m understand the importance and stuff like that. Really, what are you teaching them? How to gamble on bet medics and they come on or bent home or whatever the other ones are. You know what I mean? Like margin and training. That’s where we’re teaching them or I mean literally, what are you going to do here? Download this offer, buy this thing and then do nothing.

Tom: No, I got what you’re saying. But I think that like if we have people pushing the, the correct education, you know, the underlying technology and you know, actually pushing it and then, you know, maybe someone much smarter than me, then it could be even half my age or so, they start looking at this code and they start looking at how these transactions are happening and they say, Hey, I have this idea that no one really thought of before. So I think it’s important that people push the right narrative and they clearly articulate what this is and not just huddling, gambling, you know, trading 10 X your money and stuff like that.

Daniel: Yeah, I 100% agree with you. I’m just saying right now, like I’ll be honest with you that ah, there are people who are literally teaching a bootcamp about link. There is a push to get these same people to teach kids how to huddle.

Tom: What are they charging? Like 1000 bucks a person for that?

Daniel: Well actually, uh, carbon hat, whether Josh was the damn thing.

Joshua: Oh, it’s a, it’s free. It’s free. Oh, okay. Yeah. At least they have the decency for that.

Daniel: Yeah. Cause some of them charge a lot of money, man, like theirs. So you know I live in California, there’s lots of charge services to teach people how to handle it.

Joshua: Yeah. The funny part is that it’s a seven day course. Like, I don’t know, seven days on explaining something like that. You, you buy it, you hold it and that’s age. Right. That’s what I assume it would be like day two don’t do anything. Still don’t do anything. Yeah, exactly.

Daniel: Do nothing. It’s like you just do nothing for now until you get tired of doing nothing.

Joshua: Are they, are they like giving out calendars with like each day, like something different to do besides like buying or selling Bitcoin go play with the Frisbee or something outside. Yeah. How to, how to keep your mind from selling and Jesus, Oh boy. Social interactions on the internet. Like because everybody that huddles is going to get on the internet and start saying her, then everybody’s going to reach what they’re doing and you’re huddling, there’s a new soldier in the army of Bitcoin had lawyers and like you see that now. I mean, and like it’s weird because you’re not doing anything. I get it. And you’re like, yo, we got a new dev. He’s writing this stuff, champion. You know, this is going on new features and you’re just hotline shit.

Joshua: Well, it always strikes me that it’s so funny is that even from an investment perspective, a huddle meme is completely counterintuitive. It’s like, okay, so your whole investment thesis here is never realized gains. It’s the same reason that the people that are preaching now didn’t sell at 19K in 1718 K 16 K told you to knife catch the entire way down. It’s like your entire thesis is never take profits. Okay. That’s a glorious cell phone.

Tom: Yeah. I mean it, it doesn’t make any sense from that perspective. Right. I mean, at some point someone who’s gonna want to cash out and actually realize that unless you know, you’re just gonna hold onto it forever and you’re just going to be, you know, a paper millionaire or whatever it is your paying that we’re seeing. But we’re seeing people catering to the audience with things like what happens to your Bitcoins when you die, who willing to hear your Bitcoins? Do you have a plan yet?

Tom: Yeah, I mean that literally makes no sense. But yeah, it’s, there’s scammers out there for everything and you know, we’re still kind of in that wild, wild West phase of crypto where there’s going to be bad actors try and manipulate however it is. And they realize people are thinking about this, I guess, and they’re trying to cater to them. And just to make a quick buck one way or the other.

Daniel: Well, what I love is the fact that everybody has this idealism. Something like, like a, a Sikhi is something more than than what it is. Right? So like since the 80s most of us have been using, or you know, even in the nineties most of us were using GPG, PGP and really key storage methods that I use and I still use today. And people are like, well, that’s because you grew up in a time doing it. I’m like, no, you can literally go and set up DGP right now or GBG and literally learn how to manage private key. You understand that? And then that’ll make you better understanding the modern phrases where you’re going, uh, with Bitcoin private keys and like how public private keeper generation works, because that’s exactly how a wallet’s generated. Like I think when people puddle and download someone else’s wallet and never generate your own keys, do this.

Daniel: I mean like literally, if you really can try to make a Bitcoin transaction and you want to use the maximum of standard, it’ll take you four applications to do it and you’ll have to use lighting as well on top of that. So there’s like five steps. So you have to do, and it’s kind of ridiculous because literally just signing a transaction is nothing more than literally agreeing to do. So unlocking the funds and then signing the payload for the UTX. So, and people don’t realize that they have it in their head that there’s a lot more going on, but it’s really not, I just can’t believe, but anybody wants to call me out on it. Again, deep technical discussion about elliptical curve photography, please be on me.

Tom: So with all that being said, right, if you had to say, give a piece of advice to someone who is just learning about Bitcoin and blockchain and they’re familiar with seeing the price at 1920 K in 2017 and they saw it drop all the way down to three grand and they’re kind of afraid of it and you know, they see all this maximalist, you know, thoughts and views being pushed online, what would you say to them to kind of get them started on the right path? Stay off Twitter.

Daniel: That’s really, I mean my blood, just stay off Twitter, Twitter for at least six months. Read, read, read, go to the repositories, go to get up and read the software, read the documentation. Don’t read what someone else’s telling you. Read the documentation. Understand white paper. Actually understand the white paper. Don’t say that you read the white paper and then miss out like 20 to 35 key elements that are listed in there about understanding how the whole process works. Like most people do on certain events. They literally miss some of the core components. So basically what I would feel sworn, read the actual documentation, don’t go read what someone else has said, don’t read someone else’s summary. Go and read the actual proper documentation of that coin and read the white paper and stay off Twitter for at least the first six months. So you have a solid understanding of what you’re looking. Yeah. Otherwise you’re going to get confused, you’re going to get buyers created, you’re gonna get all these other things because people are going to try to influence you. And that’s dangerous.

Tom: Yeah, I invertedly did that. I wasn’t on Twitter back when I first got into this at the end of 2016 2017 and I am, I have a background in doing due diligence and stuff like that. So I always believe in doing my own research and you know, understanding something for myself and making my own decision besides relying on someone else’s. So the first six months, six to eight months, I would say I was probably just doing as much research as I possibly can, reading a ton of white papers and just trying to understand the different, like technical aspects of stuff. Uh, which took a lot of time for me because I’m not very technical, but I think I could understand a lot of things. So I went through that path and once I did get onto crypto Twitter, I was like, Holy shit. It’s pretty ridiculous what goes on in there. And some of the statements that a lot of these people make it, it’s just irresponsible. Joshua, to that point, what would you say?

Tom: I would say to someone, don’t be afraid to use and spend your Bitcoins. That’s the whole point of it. Use them. Spend them. You can always get more. They’re always for sale 24 hours a day, 365 days a year. There’s nothing precious about them.

Daniel: Most scarcity, most scarcity, no scarcity. I’d say I’d say there’s no scarcity. They’re always for sale. You can always get more. Don’t be afraid to use them, afraid to sell them.

Joshua: Don’t be afraid. Yeah, that’s the thing, right? A lot of people clarify at this 21 million and they say three to four of them have already been lost. So there’s really only really 17 million and there’s less than one per, every in air,

Daniel: the exact amount as sub 21 million because people don’t know how to do math and all that can change with a line of code. So.

Tom:
Exactly. So that’s a narrative that’s being pushed and that’s kind of, you know, it’s sticky, it gets caught in people’s mind and that’s kind of the same narrative that they keep pushing. So I understand it, you know, from a behavioral standpoint why people would buy into that. And it’s kind of like collecting Pokemon cards. Right? Do you think that they’re going to be worth more in the future? Well, we’re not. When I was a kid, I thought that was like collecting comics, baseball cards and all that type of stuff. It’s a collectible type item. But like Daniel pointed out before, it’s software, right? It’s meant to be used. It’s meant to be spent. And it’s meant to like transact and owning your own money. So I think we’ve gone way too far past that. Their narrative and it’s really been lost over the past few years.

Daniel: I mean it was really sad again or I know, I’ll just say this one last thing and I won’t be long, but basically it is sad for like a developer looking at this and saying it’s a software and then telling people not to use the software. It’s like what?

Joshua: Well, I’d build it. Why even build it in the first place if you’re not going to use it? Yes. All right, so we’re running out of time here. I just had a couple more questions for you guys. The one that keeps getting pushed around now is the narrative that in 2020 we’re going to have this having event happen and you know historically we’ve seen the price go up every time we have, they’re having an event and then traditionally crashes afterwards. What do you guys think about that and do you have any thoughts? What’s going to happen over the next couple of months to year? Correlation does not equal causation.

Joshua: How things were never designed for price appreciation. That was never the point. And history doesn’t repeat itself every single time. So sure, if people want that to be their thesis, you know we’re going to see whatever 30 50 K because of this. They’re welcome to believe that, but there’s not a lot of evidence that the happenings were the specific cause of the previous price appreciation.

Tom: Daniel, what do you think?

Daniel: I agree with Joshua number one and because like literally corners first rise and then the do with anything lately when you start seeing it go to 1,125 I remember to that and then I did everything to do with people using the coin straight up. Like people were using it on the show group we were using on the do you know, whatever restaurants and stuff. They were doing a couple of campaigns to get this stuff going. And again, we’re certain correlation doesn’t mean causation. So let’s take a look and we’re just having a light Corning’s happening. Okay. Let’s also not pretend that Bitcoin is not going to be susceptible to such a thing. Sure. You’re going to have everybody say don’t try and attempt their bags. The reality is, again, history doesn’t always repeat itself and just like this last little influx of money, we started seeing, you know, Bitcoin price go up, orange going to go down and the reason it goes up and down so quickly, buying pressure to keep that price hoisted up. Even when somebody sells a thousand coins, it liquidates the Bible books or the order book and what happens there, you start crashing and price. We were like, Oh my God, how that happen. It’s like, well when you only have like 30% of the people who are buying in 2017 buying now and the echo chamber is kind of a critical mass and most people don’t care. It’s not guaranteed to go up.

Tom: Oh for sure not. But a lot of people don’t think like that unfortunately. All right, so last question I’ve got for you guys. This is going to be directed towards Daniel first. This comes in from our friend crypto window. She wants to know who is Sitoshi Nakamoto.

Daniel: There’s two things about the one. Most of those that were there in the early days can tell you it was, I really don’t feel comfortable doing that on a broader broadcast. Those because of the fact that the safety and the inherent risks of the people that were involved including their family members, which is something that’s ultimate overlook. Number two, if you read the block chain and you read early Bitcoin talking, you read what was stated by Joe, she and a few other people, you can actually put the pieces together. You can look at what Bitcoin is comprised of, three fundamental elements, two of which were designed and developed and I’m not going to say black or blue or anything like that so we can just do their own thing on this because again, check the people that were involved. I am not trying to DocSend friend and associate with something. I choose not to do that. I will reach out the window and tell her some data to look at, which I’ve already given her information for before but to protect family members and things like that. I find that identifying who he is is not confirming and verifying. It is literally nothing more than at this point because it should be just kind of forgotten in some ways because realistically even if we know who he is, is it going to change anything?

Tom: So she, she just thought that was going to be a joke. I was up with her in Toronto for the futurist conference as we were coordinating this.

Daniel: I got a kick out of it but I will tell you this much. I have received death threats in the past because I do like that I was assigned to early on with certain things. People were trying their best to figure it out and get me to doc too. It was, I got to kick out the question because she’s asked me that before too, but she knows, she knows. I’ve given her data about how to find it herself and figured it out. Again, it tells the story and like I told people, zero to 35 and correlations of times and events and things that can tell you exactly who it is and you don’t leave me the point you in any other direction besides them. And literally Wendy is a great person. Every time she’s in San Francisco, I’m in LA, you know, we always chat and hang out and everything like that. Her husband and family is amazing. So she’s a wonderful person, you know, as far as like individual and stuff, I’m like, I only think she’s great on that side. And then the other questions, very funny.

Tom: Shout out to Crypto WendyO. Alright guys, this has been awesome. Very informative. I’m really glad I was able to speak to both of you today and just kind of pick your brains on everything because I think you both have very logical minds and you’re thinking about things a lot clearer than the vast majority of people in this space are. So I really appreciate both of you taking the time to come on and talk to me about this stuff.

Daniel: Can I say one thing? I just want to say one thing in closing. Alright, so the maximums thing, anti Bitcoin, let me, let me give him a little truth bomb here. I’m me fighting your misinformation. There’s a chance that the price may go down. I am hurting my own bags by fucking fighting your misinformation. That’s to tell you how much I care about Bitcoin and I don’t give a shit about money.

Tom: I mean, that’s all you have to say right there, right? I mean, people could say whatever they want, but you’re holding a lot and you have, I’m assuming you would probably have a ton more than a lot of people that just entered into the space.

Daniel: No, it doesn’t matter about the number, but you have a deep interest in it.

Tom: Right. And you’re both invested from a personal standpoint and a financial standpoint as well. So you’re just doing the right thing by just trying to fight the false narratives out there. So kudos to you.

Daniel: Well, yeah, I wanted to make sure the maximalists got dubbed because there’s been a few of them that I’ve said some stuff to me, both in person and on Twitter. Basically accusing me of, Oh, you must have got rid of all your Bitcoin. That’s why you want to destroy it. No, actually I prefer Bitcoin to be around a hundred dollars and I prefer it to be being used and the chain to me scale and just circulation, just like a real currency used so that we can get rid of this bullshit narrative around huddles, stackings ads and all that. That’s what I would like to see. Actually, matter of fact, when Bitcoin hit $100, we had all kind of hope that that was going to be it. And we were also totally mistaken.

Tom: All right guys, again, thank you both so much. I really appreciate you taking the time and um, this was awesome. We’ll have to do it again sometime and you know, kind of see how the narrative shifts over the next few months. And uh, touch base then.

Daniel:
Sounds good. All right. Well, you have a wonderful day. Thanks guys. Thanks again.

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